Maggi64:
Jpny
When you say, "I don't think #1 is true, except in a few cases like Addicted and Bad Buddy. There is almost always a severe power imbalance were the seme infantilizes the uke, who often has almost no agency and is generally useless., or at least useless without the guidance and support of the seme. "
I wonder if this happens because the women who write the BL's are subconsciously writing the uke as a woman? In other words, the uke is coded for woman, so she gives the uke stereotypical female qualities? This would be troubling because one would hope that women would want to portray our gender as equally strong. Nevertheless, I see your point and this is the only theory I have to explain it.
I think quite often the uke is the writer inserting herself into the story, and that's why many ukes have underdeveloped characters. That was particularly true in Lovely Writer, which had that underscored by the author actually literally inserting herself into the series.
I personally prefer a man to be aggressive and domineering (in bed), so I get that fantasy - but it's hard for me to get into a story where the uke is basically a helpless 12-year old Victorian virgin whose life is controlled by the seme, like in Don't Say No.
But yes, I think it's probably harder for a woman, especially in a more repressive culture, to visualize something outside of a heteronormative relationship and thus the uke takes on characteristics of a pre-feminist female character. I would think an appeal of BL would be that it is two guys who are more or less equal and interact as friends as well as lovers, but that's not really the case as BL stories are almost never written that way. That's one of the things that's so compelling about Gemini/Fourth - they DO interact like equals and friends and their scenes are so realistic that it's actually somewhat painful to watch for me.
I think many women don't get how unrelated many or most men view sexual desire and love. It would be unremarkable and even fun to scope out hot guys when you're with your boyfriend - but usually if a guy were to comment on how hot passing women were while with his girlfriend there would be Big Trouble. Many women in straight relationships even get upset if their sig. other ever uses porn - that's utterly incomprehensible to a man.
E_Maya:
The seme uke power imbalance terminology is from the Yaoi tradition though. Is all BL necessarily Yaoi? There's been some development towards better representation. I don't think BL and Yaoi need to be synonyms.
There's been some development, but not a lot. One positive thing is there's almost no romanticized rape anymore. But the audience still expects a top and a bottom, and the top is the more masculine and powerful.
There have recently been 5 or 6 BLs about boss and and employee - in every single one the boss is the seme. But wouldn't it be more interesting if the subordinate were the seme, like in Old Fashion Cupcake?
yonghwa7:
First of all, thank you Maggi64 for sharing the highlights from your research! I think point #4 brings up a good question - if gay relationships weren’t still taboo in most of Asia would this content be so compelling?
I would also propose another possibility related to psychological safety. Is it possible that some women are attracted to BL content because it offers the opportunity to enjoy male intimacy - albeit vicariously - in a way that is emotionally and physically safe and non-threatening?
I think that #4 is a very strong reason for it being compelling. After all, conflict is what fuels drama, right? So the taboo factor raises the risk and drama factor. I love the gay romance novel "Maurice" and it's about a man in Edwardian England who takes enormous risks for love. He could be imprisoned for it! So there was an element of not only social conflict, but inner conflict as the character fought with his own feelings.
You also raise an excellent point when you talk about the non-threatening aspect of women viewing BL's. I have heard some say that it offers them a way of gazing at the male body in a safe space. That's a good reason to add to our list.
jpny01:
There's been some development, but not a lot. One positive thing is there's almost no romanticized rape anymore. But the audience still expects a top and a bottom, and the top is the more masculine and powerful.
There have recently been 5 or 6 BLs about boss and and employee - in every single one the boss is the seme. But wouldn't it be more interesting if the subordinate were the seme, like in Old Fashion Cupcake?
I loved Old Fashioned Cupcake because it also portrayed a younger man pursuing an older one, and we usually see the older person pursuing the younger, hotter person. I also loved that because it featured grown ups. The guy playing Nozue was truly hitting 40. I am 55 so I get tired of seeing high school kids.
I am also glad you mentioned Lovely Writer vis-a-vis the seme/uke portrayals because that show not only feminized the bottom, but infantalized him. Remember how the morning after sex the bottom had to go pee, so the top CARRIED him like a baby to the bathroom? He said, "I know you hurt, so I'll carry you." Christ.
I don't want to be vulgar, but I've had anal sex and, sure, it was a bit sore in the morning, but I was fine. The women who write BL's really need to have anal sex before writing about it because they constantly depict it as sheer agony. The book version of Addicted, Advance Bravely, and Uncontrolled Love all portray the bottom as being in such anguish that the message is basically "gay sex = negativity." Now, why would gay men have anal sex at all if it were all negative, utter pain?
In Addicted, Buy Lui Yin is in such agony that he's bedridden for a week and needs a doctor to come every day to check on him. When Gu Ha is the bottom, a doctor is rushed over to the house as an emergency call. I don't generally subscribe to the notion that women cannot write gay male fiction, but in this one area I do think they get it all wrong and need to do some homework. They don't need to rush out and have anal sex, but they could at least read about it and/or interview some actual gay men.
Frankly, I think the only area of gay male characters that women writers misrepresent is the actual sex act.
??
I mean, some women are better at writing gay guys than others, and women aren't a hive mind so not every flawed trope will appear in every BL, but you really don't think anything about BL guys is unrealistic or misrepresented other than the sex part?
I think several of the things jpny mentioned are fairly obvious misrepresentations of gay guys, right?
Ryn_333:
??
I mean, some women are better at writing gay guys than others, and women aren't a hive mind so not every flawed trope will appear in every BL, but you really don't think anything about BL guys is unrealistic or misrepresented other than the sex part?
I think several of the things jpny mentioned are fairly obvious misrepresentations of gay guys, right?
jpny was saying he was concerned with the exaggerated seme/uke depictions and I agreed with him.
Despite this, however, I still I don't think women are disqualified from writing BL's by nature of their gender, as some would have it. Remember, when people criticize women for being in the BL industry the criticism is that they do not know the gay male experience and that this disqualifies them from participating in the genre.
Well, most novelists do not live every experience of every character they write. They research and they observe real people to learn their characters. I think when it comes to gay male sex, some women do a bad job in depicting anal sex specifically because they have never researched nor interviewed gay men. This stuns me because it's not hard to research -- all they'd have to do is look at sexology studies from Masters and Johnson or Kinsey to learn that anal sex is not agony for men. Of course, it's not as pleasurable for women because we don't have a prostate, but it's still not agonizing.
Nevertheless, novels such as Semantic Error, Uncontrolled Love, Addicted, Advance Bravely, etc. have depicted characters bedridden and in need of emergency medical care after anal sex. Live action tend to not depict sex at all. But man, the aftermath of anal sex in these novels is depicted as so painful as to be comical. To be clear, this wouldn't be the only thing women writers might get wrong, but in my experience it's the thing they get most consistently wrong.
Second to that would be the "I'm not gay, just gay for you" trope. According to Masters and Johnson and Kinsey, this phenomena does not exist. One is hetero, gay or bisexual. One is not hetero, but gay for only One Penis On the Planet. This One Penis On the Planet thing only exists in BL Land. But I've noticed BL's are moving away from this and depicting more characters who identify as gay or bisexual, which is nice. I've mentioned this before on MDL and it generated some fascinating discussions to explain why BL writers are drawn to "Only Gay for You" concept. In fact, you were part of one.
But yes, I think it's probably harder for a woman, especially in a more repressive culture, to visualize something outside of a heteronormative relationship and thus the uke takes on characteristics of a pre-feminist female character.
To me this is connected to the theme of violence. The more passive/feminine character is not in touch with their sexuality at all, keeps saying no and being passive until the act is forced on them, and then in the hetero masculine fantasy view their sexuality is freed, because of course on their own the passive/ feminine side doesn't have agency and is barely a sexual being. The whole thing is so demeaning and sexual assault. Apparently this is still a theme in some hetero shows like Thai Lakorns.
Frankly, I think the only area of gay male characters that women writers misrepresent is the actual sex act. I had commented on this with jpny above when I cited books that depicted anal sex as some gruesome act of torture.
I read one BL book like this and it made me feel ill. There was such dualism, a romance and then a bloody assault and that was supposedly normal. It was both the it's supposed to hurt you, and it doesn't matter that it hurts you as long as I like it. The shock is the ever present violence, when you don't expect it.
the message is basically "gay sex = negativity."
I think it's on a continuum. First you aren't a sexual being, then the active masculine liberates you by way of penetration, but you still don't want for yourself, you have to be liberated over and over because penetration remains undesirable. The so called passive partner doesn't get to have agency, and to make sure they don't try, we'll make it hurt, literally. One thing I found interesting in Love by Chance was how Pete was the one who seemed to think his wants and needs as a bottom were too much, usually it's more about pushy tops. The second season was a strange mix of actors being uncomfortable, gay sex equaling negativity and hints of kink (age play, Big/little). I'm aware the author of these novels is one those that likes to depict sexual violence and pain.
--------------------------------------
Anyways, for me the best BL is where I don't have to deal with the old unrealistic tropes too much. I get that the original Asian market apparently expects these conventions, although not all of them in equal measure. There's also better BL produced by teams that have LGBTQ members, so that's nice.
To answer why I like BL, what's my favourite kind of story. No, I don't like the I don't like men, I only like you trope. I like it when one or both the characters realize they aren't straight and have their first gay crush or maybe they've known for a long time they aren't straight and dive into their first gay relationship. It's the discovery aspect, and the drama is heightened by the idea that there's no chance he likes me, he doesn't even like my gender. When the leads negotiate the situation the drama and payoff is plenty intense.
