This is really an exciting discussion. First of all I am not a hetero or even a bi female, but a gay Asian male, but I really love to understand what I call the "other". Please don't get confused by my moniker, Solipsism5 - I am totally fascinated by how other people think. I only use that name to make people focus on how people normally think by a kind of default mechanism, thinking only of their own thoughts and sensations. What is really one of the most critical things in life is to think about how others think. This is really one of the most difficult and challenging things in life, and so I love delving into how people who are totally different from myself perceive the world. I don't generally think of sexuality as defining how one perceives the world, but do believe it is one of the important defining ways that people normally think. As a person who likes to think in a critical way, I don't think of things in terms of sexuality, per se, but I can acknowledge the sway of a biological impulse that drives my thinking, and which, at times, I believe I must counter in order to arrive at some truth which is clouded by these impulses.
I must admit I love how women love the thing which I love, which is romantic love between two men. I really find this so captivating, that BL's have totally engrossed me for the past two years. I am trying to understand how women actually like this, and are not "grossed out" by men having romantic and sexual relations with each other. I have to just speculate since I'm not in your heads, but I have seen enough conjecture on the topic posed here and an other forums. There have always been some people who have pointed to the idea that gay love is a novel and new way of exploring the old trite love stories from the past and has received a certain cache due to the novelty of the exploration of love in an old tried and true format with a new "flavor" that is so disparate from the old ones, and so powerfully new that it is almost entrancing. I must admit that I, myself, fall a little bit into this category since I've seen a thousand hetero romances and have really seen it all. There is something so totally different in the way men love men, and women love women, that is almost revolutionary and overwhelmingly different from the old hetero romances. The one thing I find captivating is how gay lovers are almost outside their societies, and even as BL's make couple part of a homonormative society, you can still feel that the couples are isolated, and still outside the norm. It makes their love stories feel desperate, or highly singular. I feel these stories become really entrancing because of this. We are still talking about love but this love feels new and unique, and is, therefore much more present in our minds than the thousand cliche romances from the past.
What I've also heard is that women like men being more sensitive and emotional. I also love this part of the genre because I love when men are romantic and emotional in a way that you never see in hetero romances. I've seen a few romances where they touch on this but for this to be the focus of the drama is what I love - it's what BL's bring to the table. I love seeing men that are caring, considerate, emotional, and romantic. I know this is just so completely opposite to the stereotypical machismo portrayed in 1 million different different dramas in Hollywood and international cinema throughout the world. It has becoming an utterly tiresome norm, and a crushing form of modeling that drowns out the possibilities of men loving each other, or even men being romantic and affectionate with members of either sex. I don't care about men dueling and fighting and killing people to attain some form of hetero ideal of true romance. I find that to be barbaric. I don't mind people fighting for ideals and sacrificing themselves for a virtuous cause, but let's not make it about romance. I find that connection that Hollywood makes is rather absurd, and it's a kind of modeling that has become a form of brain-washing. Love is about caring, and consideration, and appreciating the "other". I, myself, have grown up in the US and have always been an outsider, both as gay man and an Asian who has rarely been understood or accepted in this society [in the midwest which is even less tolerant than most areas of the US]. I'm not saying that to get some sympathy from anyone, because I'm having a great time and enjoy my life immensely, but I understand being outside the normal group, and think in terms of how people on the outside view the world.
I've also heard that women like to be off the menu, so to speak. They appreciate men going after other men instead of a woman being the object of relentless pursuit by hetero males. I can understand that completely. The concept of men chasing women like they do in a kind of toxic way, which is certainly a considerable percentage of the norm, would give a lot of women a sense of relief that they can don't have to vicariously watch a woman being pursued by a man onscreen the way they normally get pursued, like a piece of meat. I hate to say that about men, but that is how a lot of them are which is unfortunate, but certainly true. I don't fantasize about my sex as being above reproach - I'm much more in the opposite camp which believes men need a lot of self-reflection on their motives especially in regards to sex. They spend way too little time thinking about what woman want and need, and make light of it. If I could say this much, philosophically, women are much more able to pursue what I perceive to the best ethics for humanity - things like compassion, and love. I'm not naive about this. I work in a place in a mental health facility wherein 90 percent of the workforce are women, and they engage in constant, endless bickering, and power struggles. Yet compared to men they are still able to be more giving, and considerate. I'm not saying that I would prefer all workplaces to be run by women, but I like that women are probably better at being in charge than men just because they are definitely more understanding [God, I feel like I'm arguing for a matriarchal society, but I'm really not]. Getting back to BL's, with the concept of men going after other men, women don't have to worry about the normal pursuit of themselves as sexual objects and can visualize just pure love without the stigma of the traumas experienced by hundreds of women from the past. They can focus on an ideal love where there is just love for the sake of love. This, in itself, is a little unrealistic, because gay men are very carnal, and not just out for ideal love. I think the love we see in BL's is rather more fantastical than any love in the real world. It's sort of out there - a love that is completely fantastical, and virtuous beyond the possible constraints of human society. This is what might be appealing to women, although I'm just speculating here.
I have a lot more I could write on this topic, but I'm very busy with work, so I'll leave it at that. I'm going to go back and read all the comments here. I haven't read any of them before writing this. I thought I should rather write my opinion before reading the rest. I think we all tend to get swayed by the opinions of other people, so I thought I'd write this before I become part of the group think in part or whole.
Wow, I just checked this discussion and what a delight to find such thoughtful, intelligent replies. It seems I am not the only one who wondered why women love BL’s so much.
Musical_grl said something interesting in distinguishing gay porn from BL’s with the following passage:
“One thing to comment on for women watching BLs instead of gay porn. It is because more often than not women are more interested in the emotional relationship than just the sexual one.”
Your comment reminded me of a terrific study on how men and women give directions. Men will tell you to drive 3 miles, make a left at the light, then half a mile and two more rights. Women will tell you to drive 3 miles until you see that pretty little church with the red roof, then half a mile while you pass a lot of lovely maple trees, then make the next right at the school, you know, the school that just won the basketball nationals,” In other words, women tell stories and give visual and emotional context. Women's ability for description and storytelling is why our gender writes and reads more novels. I used to work in publishing at William Morris and we tallied that women buy twice as many books as men. Women keep publishing alive! And BL’s are, after all, stories. So thank you for pointing this out Musical_grl.
Solipsism, thank you, thank you, thank you for being a gay man who enjoys fujoshis! Lol. I have run into a number of gay men on MDL who have made snide remarks about fujoshis “fetishizing” gay men. Or how we want "fluff and fantasy, not a real gay story." I don’t think that’s true.I think we want the whole gamut – from fluff to seriousness. After all, hetero romances come in all those forms, so why not enjoy gay romances in all those forms too? I also know that most women who love fluffy BL’s have seen the heavier ones, such as Night Flight, as well. We absolutely know about LGBT films as well as BL’s and watch both.
Solipsism, you also nailed it on why I love gay love stories when you said the following:
“The one thing I find captivating is how gay lovers are almost outside their societies, and even as BL's make a couple part of a homonormative society, you can still feel that the couples are isolated, and still outside the norm. It makes their love stories feel desperate, or highly singular.”
Exactly. After all, conflict is the essence of drama and there’s more conflict in a gay love story since there is more at stake. Gay people risk losing social and family approval – especially in Asia where it’s still not 100% accepted. I love the movie and book “Maurice” by EM Forster because that character took enormous risks for his love in Edwardian England. He could be imprisoned, as Oscar Wilde was in the Victorian England.
I want to thank all of you for contributing. This has turned into a highly enlightening discussion.
Tye, thank you for joining in. You and Solipsism and Etoks are all gay males and I wanted to hear your thoughts on the fact that BL's are written, directed and consumed by women. I know some gay men find it offensive and think we "feed off them" or "fetishize them" or "objectify the male body." Well, we actually do objectify the male body sometimes with the "female gaze" but I say that's fine since we've dealt with the male gaze for centuries, right? At any rate, you said this discussion helped you to understand why the BL crowds at promos were all women. I am very pleased that it offered insights. People here really outdid my expectations with serious, thoughtful replies.
I somehow ended up reading western MM romance after getting a little bored with straight historical romance or bodice rippers around 10 years ago. The MM romance reading then lead me to BL shows a few years ago. In a way there's something similar in the two romance genres, it's not that either is forbidden romance per say, but there can be more obstacles and other people make it their business to judge you. To me MM romance/BL is the lighter side of more representative queer content, like bodice rippers are the lighter side of serious historical literary works like Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice.
I've mostly avoided queer cinema, because I find endless tragic outcomes for the protagonists unbearably frustrating and depressing. It's the same thing as with the emancipated woman in older literature, she ends up broken or dead most of the time. Brokeback Mountain (2005) made me sad and furious. It was a good movie and infuriating the same way novels like The Awakening (1899) by Kate Chopin are, in showing the tragic consequences of sexual and emotional awareness in an oppressive society.
The first LGBTQ television series I remember watching was probably the UK original version of Queer as Folk (1999), also, The L Word (2004) and Hit the Floor (2013) with Zero and Jude made an impression. Later I started watching Asian BL and the occasional western LGBTQ show like Young Royals (2021)and Heartstopper (2022). I'm in it for the emotional romance, and I'm not delusional, since I'm attracted to men, two guys together can definitely also be hot. There's always room for a discussion about LGBTQ representation and objectification.
When it comes to romance I like, it doesn't need to be straight, and the kind I like best embraces both the emotional and the physical aspects of a relationship.
"The first LGBTQ television series I remember watching was probably the UK original version of Queer as Folk (1999), also, The L Word (2004) and Hit the Floor (2013) with Zero and Jude made an impression."
QAF UK is like the 90s gateway as that's where I started too TV wise . 90s LGBTQ movies and series were ground breaking
Ryn_333
You commented on how I said "blacks" and worried it was somehow offensive. I teach English, but I also teach in a special program that my college has for low income black and Latinos students. They always say "blacks" and "whites" and I took my cue from there. The only ethnicity that really does not like to be named so bluntly are Jewish people. If you say "Jews" it hits hard on the ears for some reason. But we can use the one word, plural noun for all the other races/ethnicities and say: blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos.
To be clear, my students are all from NJ cities such as Newark and Paterson and you may have a different experience in your part of the country. But I even volunteer tutor at Newark's Juvenile Detention Center where all the kids are black. And, yep, they say "blacks" too. Actually, they refer to each other with the n-word, which the black correction officers don't allow, but like most whites I keep out of it.
Queer as Folk was indeed a gateway show. I loved it. Now, I am aging myself, but I still recall back when it was a BIG deal for Ellen Degeneris to say "I'm gay" on her tv show. Today we see gay characters all the time. They kiss, hug and cuddle just like hetero couples. We also get to see gay love stories with happy endings.
One gay love story I always recommend is "Maurice." It was made in 36 years ago in 1987 and was so ahead of its time with a happy ending. It was based on EM Forster's novel of the same name which, of course, he could not publish back in 1913. He only shared it with friends. It was published posthumously in the 1970's. You can read it free on Project Guttenberg . And you can find the movie free online as well. It's truly one of the great LGBT movies of our times.
I don't think #1 is true, except in a few cases like Addicted and Bad Buddy. There is almost always a severe power imbalance were the seme infantilizes the uke, who often has almost no agency and is generally useless., or at least useless without the guidance and support of the seme.
That's actually my biggest complaint about BL - authors treat tops and bottoms as totally different genders, which makes me wonder if they've ever even met any gay men.
Which may be beside the point because BL isn't really LGBT,
By "fetishize", I don't think that's supposed to be in a sexual sense, like size queens, or the leather scene, but rather about the imagined role the characters play, which is formulaic and varies little, but is expected. Yet in many cases these tropes are the result of institutional homophobia - i.e. the avoidance of physical affection until the very end. I should say "intentional physical affection", because BL is full of accidental affection - accidental kisses, trip/catch, and so on - because a man shouldn't seek gratification from another man, so he has to be forced, either by accident, or in older BLs and thankfully a declining trope, sexually assaulted.
I did not put the definitive article "the" in front of "blacks". That has a different connotation . I said "blacks are such and such." We say the plural noun for Asians, whites, Latinos, Indians, Native Americans and blacks. They are all equally races and thus require equal grammatical rules. I would advise against making blacks into some weak group who need white protection and thus entirely different grammatical rules. They are perfectly strong and can handle being called by the same terminology as all other races. I only say "Jewish people" because Jewish people have specifically requested it. However, this is not something that other races request.
Incidentally, the area where one needs to use the word "people" is not so much racial terminology, but disabilities terminology. For instance, we do not say "Dwarf" but instead, "Little People." We do not say "A quadriplegic," but "People with quadriplegia." The reason we say "people" in these phrases is to humanize them by reminding us all that they are PEOPLE. This change in terminology was part of the 1990's Disabilities Movement. There has been no such movement to eradicate the plural noun form for races such as Asians, whites, Latinos, Indians, blacks and Native Americans.
Ok, I shan't say more on this topic. I don't want the whole discussion to turn into language policing. It's a great discussion about why women are BL fans so let's keep it going in that direction.
In the meantime, I need to invite some black fujoshis to join the group! LOL. I invited 3 buy haven't heard from them yet. I researched the demographics for MDL and BL's and it's a majority of white and Asian hetero females. We need more people of color and more gay men! So let's thank our gay men Solipsism, Tye, Etoks and Jpny for joining!
Jpny
When you say, "I don't think #1 is true, except in a few cases like Addicted and Bad Buddy. There is almost always a severe power imbalance were the seme infantilizes the uke, who often has almost no agency and is generally useless., or at least useless without the guidance and support of the seme. "
I wonder if this happens because the women who write the BL's are subconsciously writing the uke as a woman? In other words, the uke is coded for woman, so she gives the uke stereotypical female qualities? This would be troubling because one would hope that women would want to portray our gender as equally strong. Nevertheless, I see your point and this is the only theory I have to explain it.
I don't think #1 is true, except in a few cases like Addicted and Bad Buddy. There is almost always a severe power imbalance were the seme infantilizes the uke, who often has almost no agency and is generally useless., or at least useless without the guidance and support of the seme.jpny01:
The seme uke power imbalance terminology is from the Yaoi tradition though. Is all BL necessarily Yaoi? There's been some development towards better representation. I don't think BL and Yaoi need to be synonyms.
I'm friendly with a black fujoshi from England and she said that she wasn't sure if it were the case that black fujoshis were rare, or if it just felt that way because black people are already a minority in England. I just know that I'd like more voices in this discussion group so I sent invitations with that in mind but haven't heard back yet.
I know that in America, a fujoshi of any race is a minority. Indeed, there are so few that most Americans never even heard of BL. It is largely an Asian phenomena. Whenever I tell my American friends about BL they say, "Oh, so you just mean LGBT books and movies." And I reply, "No, it's different because BL is created by women, marketed to women and consumed by women. It's also less political than LGBT content. "
They are always surprised that BL is for women instead of gay men. Which generates the whole discussion we are having right now because, of course, the next question is always, "Why would women want gay male love stories?"
I try to answer that question intelligently and, thus, I began reading Queer Studies academic papers. But this discussion right here has given me far more insight than any of those papers. Truly, I must've read 50 of those in the past 2 years since discovering BL, and yet I've gleaned better insights from this discussion in the past 2 days.
The reason, of course, is that you are actual fans of BL. So many of the people writing Queer Theory dissertations are not even BL fans and only chose it because it's the hot new topic in that department. I can tell they are not fans by how often they get plot points and characters wrong. One paper mistook the name of the adopted son for the billionaire's son from the Chinese BL "Uncontrolled Love: Secret of the Valet."
